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sandra: welcome to another episode of we don'tdie, where my goal is to give you evidence that although our bodies will disappear, wesurvive physical death. i'm your host, sandra champlain, author of the book "we don't die:a skeptic's discovery of life after death". today, i have a very special episode for you.i'm sure you've heard me say in the past that when we're not afraid of death, we're no longerafraid of life. our guest is gary renard, who's opened up my eyes to a new way of livinglife, teaching the principles of something called 'a course in miracles'. now, it maytake me a lifetime to master these principles, but so far i can tell you that i have a senseof peace and joy that i've never known before. i want to thank gary for this. gary is thebest-selling author of many works, including

"the disappearance of the universe", "yourimmortal reality", and "love has forgotten no one". the audio-book that first introducedme to him is "secrets of the immortal". gary's words are not just amazing to me -- over thepast seven years, he's spoken in over 43 states, 23 countries, and he is published in 22 languages.combining a disarming sense of humor with radical, cutting-edge metaphysical informationand experiential exercises, gary has been described as "one of the most interestingand courageous spiritual speakers in the world," and he has been awarded the prestigious infinityfoundation spirit award. so, i've got goosebumps now, as i'm introducing you to one of my heroes.we don't die radio would like to give a warm welcome to mr. gary renard. hello, gary.

gary: hey, sandra. how are you doing? sandra: great. can you live up to that introduction? >> laughter gary: no way, but... i must say, it's greatto talk to someone that's in massachusetts. i smiled -- of course, i lived most of mylife in new england before i moved out here to california. i hear that it may be a bitcolder out there today. sandra: oh my goodness. yes, we're recordingthis in february of 2016 and it actually got - 33 degrees just the other night. so, it'sbeen brutal. gary: wow.

sandra: i know. gary: it's in the 80's here today. sandra: tomorrow, it's going to be 50 degrees,so how strange is that? gary: yeah, that's very strange. sandra: so, i've got a little bit of a coldout of it, so apologize if i'm sniffling or sneezing a little bit. but, gary -- gary: oh, it's okay. sandra: i gave that introduction -- yeah.how about you share a bit about who you are? i know that your story starts -- were youborn in massachusetts, or maine, or... it

was definitely this area. gary: yeah, i was born in salem, massachusetts,and... don't read anything into that. sandra: nope, i won't. gary: and... i actually spent most of my time,my first 40 years anyways, mostly in beverly which is right next to salem. sandra: that's where i was born, gary. gary: okay. sandra: in beverly, yes. gary: well, we're born very close to eachother.

sandra: mmhm. gary: great places. in fact, i just went backto salem and beverly, oh, last july... to visit and to show my wife, cindy around becauseshe had never been there. sandra: nice. gary: we had a great time just hanging outand, you know, i was showing her my old haunts and it was a good trip. sandra: yeah. new england is a nice place. gary: i did move to maine from massachusetts,so... the last 17 years that i was in new england, i was actually in maine. maine iseven colder.

then, about 2007, i moved out here to l.a..or, at least near l.a.. close to the ocean -- santa monica. sandra: very nice. gary: that area. and, it's beautiful. and...yeah, i've been very, very lucky because, you know, i didn't really get on a spiritualpath until i was about 27/28, and it started to unfold and i would say that it took meabout 14 years before i was ready to even approach something like 'a course in miracles'.and... then, if anybody reads my book "the disappearance of the universe", they'll seethat i was introduced to it in a very unconventional way, a very unusual way... yet, it was exactlywhat was meant to happen and it unfolded very

naturally. and so, over a period of nine orten years, i ended up chronicling the events that took place in maine with these two ascendedmasters who had appeared to me in person gave me all of these teachings. and, the book isabout my life and also about their visits, what they said. it's about a course in miracles,and also spirituality in general. i like the topic of your show, because it's certainlyteaching that there is no death and that there's no such thing as death. i like what you sayat the beginning of your show, because you say that if you have no fear of death, thenyou do not fear life. there are some strong parallels to that in 'a course in miracles'.you'll notice as you go on studying that it teaches that the last two obstacles to peaceare the fear of death and the fear of god.

sandra: hm. gary: people don't know that they're afraidof god, that they have this unconscious fear of god... if they were aware of it, it wouldn'tbe unconscious. it's buried deep within the mind. if they weren't afraid of god, thenthey wouldn't be afraid of death either. the two actually go hand-in-hand, and what 'acourse in miracles' does slowly is that it undoes the ego, which is really the thoughtof separation. it undoes the ego, undoes the idea of separation, slowly but surely undoesthis unconscious guilt that is in the mind and can be traced all the way back to theoriginal idea of being separate from god, which brings this tremendous unconscious guiltand people aren't even aware that they have

it, because it's buried in the mind, but thecourse actually accomplishes the job of healing the part of the mind that you cannot see -- theunconscious part of the mind. sandra: right. gary: in doing so, it changes everything andit undoes that fear of god that you didn't even know that you had. and, in the lighterstages of the course, it actually involves an actual approach to god. so, in undoingthat fear of god, you're also undoing the fear of death since one goes with the other.if you didn't have a fear of god, you wouldn't have a fear of death either because the fearof death is really a made-up imitation of your fear of god and you can also say thatdeath in this world is really... kind of like

the re-enactment of the separation from god.after all, what seems to happen if somebody that you love passes away? well, they're separate.you can't see them anymore. gary: you feel like you've lost them. and,that's exactly what happened in our initial experience from our separation from god. wecouldn't find him -- we were lost and we were terrified. it was an awful feeling. deathin this world is simply a re-enactment of that, and as you go on with the course andundo the ego, then eventually you come to experience more and more that death is nosuch thing -- there's no such thing as death, and you can never really lose anybody anymorethan you can lose god. it wouldn't be possible. so, the ultimate truth in the course, theprinciple of atonement is that the separation

from god never occurred. it never happened,because you're still there. as 'a course in miracles' would put it, you are home in god,dreaming of exile but perfectly capable of awakening to reality. so, what's going onwhile i'm here in what we call our life, is actually a dream of separation. we're havingthis dream that we separate from god -- it seems very real, but there's a parallel there,because when you're dreaming in bed at night... for all intents and purposes, that dream isyour reality. sandra: that's right. gary: i've had dreams in bed at night thatseem every bit as real as my so-called waking life, and so real that when i woke up, i wasactually surprised that it wasn't real.

gary: because, it seemed so real. and, that'swhat this life is like. it may seem very real, but that doesn't make it real. events in adream may seem very real, but that doesn't make them true. and... what we're going todo eventually, is that we'll awaken to reality and reality is god. the truth is, we neverleft heaven. we're still there. and, that's why there's nothing to be guilty about. herewe are, believing all this time that we committed a terrible act and, this is unconscious ofcourse, but... we believed that we did this terrible thing, separating from god when thetruth is that we never did. we're still there. so, the whole thing is erroneous and all ofthis unconscious guilt is erroneous. but, we believe in the world because we've beentricked by a very clever ego into believing

in it. it's like... you know, all the information,or certainly most of the information that we have about the world is given to us bythe world, and it's given to us by the body. gary: the body is the ego's crowning achievementto make sure that the only information that we receive testifies to the reality of thewhole thing, because there's something that we don't know about the ego. the ego likesthis idea of separation. it wants to keep it going. it feels important, it feels specialto have an individual identity, you know, personal existence that we can call our ownlife. the ego craves that, it craves specialness and wants to keep the whole game going. and,fortunately for us, there is another voice in our mind aside from the ego.

sandra: uh-huh. gary: being a function of duality, this othervoice speaks for the truth. it's been covered over by the ego, but it's still possible tohear it. and -- which is really the approach of 'a course in miracles'. at one point, thecourse says that "salvation is undoing." that's a brilliant approach, because there are twoyou. there's the real you, which we'll call spirit for now, and... there's the ego, whichis the false you. the false you is based on the idea of separation. then, you have thereal you which is represented in the mind by the holy spirit. the holy spirit is tellingyou a completely different story, you know, the holy spirit is telling you, look. thereis a better way than this, this whole separation

thing is stupid. it always leads to pain,eventually. it always leads to death, eventually. even if you've had some good times, that'sa function of duality and eventually, those good times will turn to crap because that'sthe nature of duality. sooner or later, in a dream of death, there's always a dream ofdeath. it may not be real, but it's real in people's experiences. that's important because...that experienceof the ego beats suffering. the experience of the holy spirit leads topeace and joy, and ultimately liberation from the physical world and the cycle of birthand death and freedom from it. eventually, a total awakening into heaven will happen,which is so far beyond the world in it's joy and beauty that it literally cannot even beput into words. so, there are two stark things

that are just totally the opposite of eachother. one world is led to by the holy spirit, and the other world, this world, we have beenled to by the ego. the goal of the course is to undo the ego, which is really something,because if you can do that -- if you can undo the false you, which is the ego, then eventuallythe real you would be all that is left. that's a brilliant approach, because you don't haveto do anything about the real you. the real you is already perfect, you know. the realyou is already exactly the same as god, and all that you have to do, by working with theholy spirit, is to undo the ego. in doing so, that's really that you have to do. ultimately,although 'a course in miracles' looks very complicated and --

gary: -- scholarly, and intellectual and...you know, it has all of this aembic pentameter and shakesperean verse and freudian psychology,and you know, a half of a million words... sandra: oh, yeah. it's huge. yes, it's a bigbook. i want to ask you a question, too -- gary: but, ultimately i'd like to say thatwithin that frame of the course itself, it says that it is simple because it's alwaysasking us to choose between one of two things. that is why it is simple. sandra: right. what i wanted to ask you, gary,is... i'm somebody who went to catholic school all of my life, so when i hear you bring upgod and the holy spirit -- i'm wondering if your sense of god is what we're taught throughreligion, or if there is another way that

you see god. do you know what i'm asking? gary: sure. my sense of god is probably theopposite of religion, because religion uses guilt to make their religion successful. gary: of course, everybody thinks that theyinvented god. the catholics think that their version of god is the only version of godthat ever was, and... that version of god barely goes back 2,000 years. in fact, itwasn't even really crystallized until the 1300's. sandra: wow. gary: and, it's really not as old as they'dlike to have you think that it is. you know,

jesus 2,000 years -- if you read "disappearance",you'll see that, you know, there's a way of presenting god that doesn't involve guilt,that does not involve judgment... what 'a course in miracles' does, and i believe thatthe jesus of 'a course in miracles' is teaching the same things that the real jesus taught2,000 years ago, you know -- what the course teaches is that god is love. sandra: okay. gary: but, i think that we need to get theimplications of that, because if god was really love and -- as both the bible and 'a coursein miracles' say, god is perfect love. all it'd know how to do is love. if it knew howto do something else, then it wouldn't really

be perfect love, would it? it'd be somethingelse. so, what the course is saying is that, look. god is love and god is perfect love,and all that god wants to do is to love you. all that god wants you to do is to come home,you know, so that god can love you. to me, one of the best representations of that ideais jesus' beautiful story of the prodigal son. you may recall that he had this son whohad the idea and thought it'd be good to leave the father's house, you know, so he leaves...and, it turns out to be kind of a bonehead move, because he finds this scarcity. gary: and, you can't have scarcity in perfect(inaudible), which is the way. i believe that jesus represented god, which is the oneness.in heaven, there wouldn't be any separation

whatsoever between you and god. and, the sonleaves the father's house, and in that story all he finds is scarcity. this is, indeed,a dream of scarcity. the prodigal son ends up feeding pigs for a living, and he broughtthem feeding the pigs in this metaphorical story, but when he comes to himself, he realizes,look... i just made one mistake. i left. and, that means that there is only one solution,which is to go home. but, you also notice in that story that the prodigal son feelsguilty. he thinks that he has sinned before god. he says that he has sinned before godand is no longer worthy to be called his son, but maybe if i go home, well, maybe he'lltake me as a hired servant. maybe i can start at the bottom and work my way into his goodgraces. but... as the prodigal son is going

home in that story, what he doesn't realizeis that god doesn't share any of those ideas about him. why? because, god is still perfectlove. all that perfect love cares about is love. and so, you have the prodigal son takingthe first steps home and he gets closer and... he still feels guilty, but the father seeshim from a distance and runs to him and throws his arms around him, embracing him and says,you know, my son was lost and now he is found. he was dead, and now he is alive again. that'show jesus sends that beautiful story. god likes to party. you know, all that god wants is for you tocome home and people have all these ideas, well, certainly some of them are consciousand expressed through religion, and then you

have the unconscious part. the conscious partis just the tip of iceberg, and you know, there's all this guilt and remorse and ideasof sin that have all been attached onto god and what that is is what the course wouldcall 'projection'. so, we've actually made up a god in our image. we've made up a godwho has very human characteristics. in the bible, especially in the old testament, he'skind of like mean, you know, he's killing people and getting even with people. sandra: oh yeah. gary: he's plotting all of his revenge, youknow? gary: i hate to say it, but those are allvery human characteristics.

sandra: right, right. gary: that doesn't have anything to do withthe real god, who is still perfect love and doesn't change. of course, he teaches thatwhat is true is eternal. he doesn't try to change. that narrows it down quite a bit,because there are many things in this world that do not shift or change, so what the courseis saying is that the truth is a constant. it doesn't waiver. the truth was the truth2,000 years and the truth is still the truth today. the truth will remain true 2,000 yearsfrom now, no matter what we try to do to it. it is unalterable. it is absolute, and it'sthat way whether you understand and agree with it, or not. you know, some people don'twant to accept that because they believe in

their truth. but, their truth is kind of designedby the ego to keep them here. as long as you keep looking for the truth, you haven't foundit. there are many people who will say, well, you can't find the truth and if anyone saysthat they've found the truth, then don't listen to them. gary: but, that's a pretty clever trick ofthe ego, to keep you looking forever. so, that way you'll never find the truth. sandra: gary, i have a quick story for you.it just relates to the ego -- sorry to interrupt you, but i just think that it's important. gary: no problem.

sandra: the way that i've found out aboutyou is that i was having lunch with a friend of mine, and her name is roberta grimes. she'swritten several books... she's into life after death -- she has a book named "liberatingjesus", and she's an attorney who was telling me about 'a course in miracles'. she saidto me, sandra, you're so tough on yourself. do you know that there's a way to disappearthe ego, and not be so afraid and to disappear fear? i looked at her with this, like blankstare... like, what are you talking about? as much good as i do in this world, and aspositive as i am, you know, inside myself and, i'm sure people listening as well, wehave that negative voice. i think that's what you're talking about with the ego that feelsso separate. she was the one that referred

me to you, and 'a course in miracles' andhad me download the book, because i thought if there is any possibility of having somefreedom from this inner-critic, from this ego that wants to call me separate... i waslike, i have to listen. in turn, listening to you and -- if you wouldn't mind describinga little bit about when you say that life is a dream, because i know we all have differentpeople in our lives. some of them cause us a lot of pain, and i know you speak of, like,we created this dream. right? am i getting that right? gary: sure. that's true, yeah -- by the way,people will ask me if i believe in life after death and i tell them, i'm still trying toconfirm there's life before death.

sandra: that's great. exactly. thank you. gary: the course would say that the only reallife is heaven and that your life with god is your real life and that this is kind oflike a phony life. gary: it's an illusion, and the idea thatthe world is an illusion is actually a very old idea. but... i think that the course doesan excellent job at adding that idea into the idea that it's a dream that you'll awakenfrom. it's actually that awakening that is enlightenment. it's what buddha was talkingabout when he said that he was awake. he didn't mean that he was more awake in that dream,which is what passes for enlightenment for a lot of people. i'm very aware, and i knowwhat is going on. you know... my skills and

my intuition are attuned and i can manifestthings and do what i want in the dream. people think that it's very valuable, but what thecourse would say is no. one thing is that what's in the dream isn't more valuable thananother thing, because none of them are true. the only that is valuable is real life, whichis your life with god. so... i kind of, like, give people a disclaimer and kind of likea caveat all crammed into one before they get into 'a course in miracles', and thatis that it's not for everyone. 'a course in miracles' is extremely radical, you know.it is saying that only the truth is true, and the truth is god and nothing else is true,period. that's what you call non-duality, because it's saying that of the two seemingworlds -- the world of god and the world of

man, that only the world of god is true. period.and... a lot of people don't like the course because it sounds too absolute. the courseis saying, look. it's the truth and that's the way it is, and if you don't like it, well,too bad. you know, some people don't like that idea. gary: part of the reason for that is becausewe claim to the idea of personal identity and the idea that this is us, and you cansay that the ego has sort of sucked us into believing that this is us, and the crowningachievement of that is to believe that we're bodies. gary: because of that, our identity is wrappedinto this personal psyche and body that i

call gary and you call sandra, and we haveall this stuff going on. everything is very important. of course, it's important thati get what i want. it's important that i be successful and i, you know, have the experiencesthat i want to have. here's my course saying, well, actually... it's not important. youknow, it doesn't matter what you do and there is one thing that does matter and that islove and if what you do is coming from a place of love, then that's fine. if it's not comingfrom a place of love, then it's not fine -- not because it's a sin, but because simply thatit'll keep you stuck here. the way of undoing the faults, which is the ego, is through acertain kind of forgiveness and that kind of forgiveness is born at the holy spirit.it's a kind of forgiveness that's based upon

a thought system of love, where the ego'sthought system is based upon fear. so, right away, you have two complete and mutually-exclusivethought systems and your real power, of course, because everyone wants to have the free willand everyone wants to, you know, have a certain amount of power and what the course is saying,well... there's really only one real power you have here and that's the power to choose.at one point, the course says that the power of decision is your one remaining power asa prisoner of this world. you can decide to see it right. in other words, you can decideto interpret the dream and what you're seeing with the holy spirit, instead of the ego.that's where your real power is, because it undoes the ego and leads you home to god andit really is better to go home. it really

is better to be spirit than it is to be abody. it really is, you know, better to have that kind of a life. there's an irony here,and i think it's a delicious irony. the irony is that you can still have your life. youknow, no one is holding a gun to your head and saying that you need to give somethingup. sandra: no. gary: if you say that you have to give somethingup, then you're making it just as real in your mind as you want it. so, the irony isthat you don't have to give up your life. you can still have the things that you want,you know, you can still have your money, possessions, dreams, goals, and relationships -- all ofthat.

gary: the difference with the course, now,is that you're looking at it differently. that's all. the course doesn't ask you tochange things. it tells you not to seek to change the world, but seek to change yourmind about the world. when you do that, sandra, you're actually switching to the cause insteadof the effect. the course says that this is a course in cause and not effect. the causeis mind, and what you're seeing is just an effect. it's actually a projection that iscoming from the mind, and so when i say that you did it and you made up the dream, thatis literally true. what you're seeing is based upon the idea of separation. you'll noticethat everything you see, from the moment that you're born to the moment that you appearto die, everything is separate. everything

has a border, or a limit to it. sandra: yes. gary: there's a beginning and an ending. gary: you know, there's some kind of a shapeor a form to it. even an idea has a form, and you can't get away from that. it's likeseparation everywhere, and it's so prevalent that you don't even think about it. you justtake it for granted and accept it for being true. here's the course specifically sayingthat what you're seeing isn't true. it really goes all the way with that. at one point,it says, you know... what if you realized that this world is a hallucination? what ifyou really understood that you made it up?

you know, what if you recognized that allthe people who appear to walk about in it and attack, murder and destroy themselvesare completely unreal? i mean -- that's some pretty radical stuff. sandra: oh, mega. however, empowering in thefact that -- i'm somebody, and we talk about this often that if we can look at our liveslike we're the creator of it, we're responsible of it, then it takes us out of that victimmode. if we can look at the relationships we have and something going wrong, and insteadof the ego kicking in and telling you that the other person is wrong, as... hopefullythis is what you're saying and i'm not sure, but hey, i created it this way. right?

gary: yes. you created it this way by choosingthe ego instead of the holy spirit at that instant separation. so, you know, i don'twant people to think that they're guilty for, you know, all this crazy stuff we see in theworld. if you haven't noticed, this world is screwed. sandra: i haven't. gary: i don't want people to feel guilty,thinking like... because some people go, oh i made this terrible thing. or, look at thisviolent world i made. well, you're not making it right now. you already did. that wholescript, as the course teaches, was established right at the beginning. everything that wasgoing to ever happen was already determined.

according to the course, it's already overbut, you know, that's something that you have to awaken to in order to realize. you know,you're not creating bad things in your life. now, if you get sick, it's not because ofthe bad thoughts you were having in this lifetime. it's because of the thought of separationitself that you chose at the beginning, when you chose the ego instead of the holy spirit.there is a way out. gary: the way out, as the course puts it,is to choose once again... which is, you know, this time looking at things, choose with theholy spirit instead of the ego. that's how you undo the idea of separation, and the greattool that the course offers in order to accomplish that is the course's own unique brand of forgiveness.i think it's important to emphasize that this

isn't the kind of forgiveness where you forgivesomebody because they really did it. sandra: alright, i know that kind of forgiveness. gary: the course says, and i'm glad you broughtup the idea of not being a victim, because the course specifically says that i'm nota victim of the world i see. the reason that you're not a victim is because you asked forit, and you know... in graduate's world of duality, and it's confusing to people becausethere appears to be good stuff, too. there appears to be beauty in the world, but withthe problem of duality, it's that for every beauty there is a corresponding ugliness.for every healthy body, you have a sick body. for all the wonderful art, you have somethingthat isn't very pretty. you have this conflict

and violence and horror in the world thatdoesn't exist in perfect oneness, because in perfect oneness there is no conflict. everythingwe see out in the world, of course, teaches us an outer-picture of an inward condition.as long as you have conflict in the mind, you will have conflict in the world. you willhave wars, all this chaos... but, the time will come in the distant future -- i'm notsaying the near future, but in the distant future the time will come when enough peoplehave achieved inner-peace. my teacher in 'disappearance' said the the people of the world will neverlive in peace, until the people of the world have inner-peace. i think that's somethingthat the buddhists got right and gandhi got right, in that you have to be the change youwish to see in the world. if you want peace

in the world, well, be peace. and... bringthe mind to a condition of peace. when enough people do that, well, you couldn't not haveworld peace because of that fact of what we're seeing out there is an outer-picture of whatexists within the mind. so, the purpose of the course, ultimately, is to awaken you buti think that a condition of the course that you can reach fairly quickly is that you canbe more peaceful. that could happen even in a month of doing 'a course in miracles'. youcan begin to be more peaceful, and i think that it's brilliant that the people of thiscourse saw themselves the foundation for inner-peace, because that's very much what the course isabout. gary: as you go along, you start to experiencelife differently and more peacefully and it

actually changes everybody, because when youwork with the holy spirit -- that's really what the course gets you into the habit ofdoing, which is choosing the holy spirit, working with the holy spirit, and listeningto the holy spirit's interpretation of what you're seeing. as you do that, your experienceof life will change. it couldn't help but change. it changes not the goal of the course,but i look on it as a fringe benefit. sandra: one of the reasons i bought the bookis that i read a couple of testimonials, and i don't know where i read these, but peoplesaid that even though they didn't understand the lingo in the course, because -- even someof the things that you've saw kind of sail over my head, and i'm trying to hang on, youknow? but, in the course and i've read it,

i'm like... what is this? but, they've gottenthe impact of the course and the peace, even if they haven't understood it completely.is it right in saying that, that there's... gary: absolutely, yeah. you'll see as yougo along in the course that it gets easier, because it's more of a long-term spiritualpath. sandra: i think it's a lifetime spiritualpath, by the size of it. gary: there's nothing more annoying to a coursein miracles student than to realize that, hey, i'm going to be doing this for awhile.but, it's worth it because what you're doing, and -- you realize this and go along and havethese good experiences and you realize that as you undo the ego, you see things more clearly.what happens is you'll keep getting the course

on a deeper and deeper level as you undo theego. you'll read a paragraph in the course two years from now that you know that you'veread before, but it's like you've never saw it. then, you read it two years from now, andyou get it and say, wow. i read that before, but i never really understood. gary: i never really understood it like this,you know. that's because the words haven't changed, but you have. gary: you're changing and you're seeing thosewords from a different place. you're seeing them from a position where your ego has beenundone some, so you're seeing things on a

deeper level and more with the holy spirit.it's the same movie, so to speak. you can also think of life as being like a movie,and... the movie has already been filmed, by the way, so good luck changing it. but,it's like, you know... you're watching the movie. it's the same movie, but now it's likeyou're listening to a different interpretation of the movie. you're in a movie theater, andyou have the holy spirit sitting on one side and then you have the ego on the other sideof you. the holy spirit is saying, well, there's a better way and if you forgiveness this person,you'll feel better and you'll be more peaceful and your mind will be healed and unconsciousguilt is removed from your mind by me, as we go along. you're able to hear me better,and because of that, you're more open to my

guidance and i can guide you to a, you know,inspired ideas which are kind of a by-product of being in spirit. in fact, the word inspiredcomes from the words in spirit, so the more in spirit you are -- you can have this geniusideas that would've never been able to come to you if you weren't undoing the ego andthose interferences to hearing the holy spirit's voice. then, on the other side of the theater,you have the ego who is singing the same old tune. you know, you can't forgive this person,they don't deserve it. look, they really did this. that's why i started to say that withthis kind of forgiveness that the course is saying that we don't forgive people becausethey did something. gary: you forgive people because you reallydid it, then you're literally making it real.

that's the course's way of saying the ego'smistake. the ego's mistake is that we give truth to our illusions. what the course isasking us to do is to instead give illusions to the truth. turn our illusions over to theholy spirit and ask yourself, how would you look at this? how would you have me interpretthis and feel about this? the answer is always forgiveness, and forgiveness leads to loveautomatically, because that is what you are. you don't have to strive to be love. you alreadyare. all that you have to do is undo the prevention to experiencing that perfection that you reallyare. so... the best way to focus on the course is undoing the ego through forgiveness andi think the course is pretty brilliant in that it's saying it a thousand different ways,you know. it's amazing, it blows my mind how

the course can say the same thing over andover again, and never say it the same way twice. gary: it's always beautifully. sandra: and, i think that being a lifetimestudent, or however you want to look at it -- it gives you a daily reminder of who youare, and when you're talking about forgiveness, we're talking about self-forgiveness heretoo, because we can often be really hard on ourselves. right? gary: absolutely. and... i would say thatyou are one of the ones where you need to forgiveness. everybody is. it's like... self-forgivenessis also because it's really the same dynamic.

it's just as easy to forgive yourself as itis to forgive others, if you practice. that's kind of the bottom line. when it comes todoing the 'course in miracles', it's not a religion. it's nothing you have to be believein, it's nothing you have to for... you don't even have to tell anyone you're doing it,if you don't want to. gary: the whole course is done at the levelof the mind. it's not something where you have to stand up on a soap box and tell everyonethat this is the way. gary: this is done in the mind. i have catholicfriends who do the course when they're at mass. it's like, you don't have to tell peoplewhat you're thinking if you don't choose to. gary: at the same time, your thoughts aregoing everywhere because your every mind is

joined. ultimately, there is only one mind,because ultimately there is only one of us. it's kind of like what the hindu's would describeas the mind of multiplicity. you have the one appearing as many. so, we look out thereand see seven billion people. the truth is that there's only one of us, but appearingis seven billion people and we can undo that idea of separation, kind of like in our mindputting humpty dumpty back together again and moving towards that state of oneness thatwe really are. as we do that, you start to kind of like let go of that bodily identification.the miracle in the course of 'a course in miracles' is actually that certain kind offorgiveness that i'm talking about in those first miracle principles. it says that themiracle works because it re-establishes spirit

identification, instead of bodily identification.as you go along, you're actually letting go of this identity of being a body and kindof like reawakening to the idea of what you really are, which is this perfect spirit.when i use the word spirit, i'm not talking about anything that is separate from anythingelse. the way the course would use the word spirit is the idea of perfect oneness, soyou're one with god and all of creation. anything else that you see if kind of like a veil,or a thin-veil in front of the truth. your job, through forgiveness, is to overlook theveil, overlook the body and think of that person as being what they really are and wherethey really are. what they really are is this perfect spirit. it's the exact same as god,and you know, i love this idea from the course

-- it says that everywhere the holy spiritlooks, he sees himself. the holy spirit sees spirit everywhere, sees innocence everywhere,and if you want to return to the state of spirit, then you want to think the way thatthe holy spirit thinks. what you want to do is kind of like overlook the body when you'reforgiving someone, and you're going to forgive them not for what it looks like what theyjust did... gary: you're forgiving them because they haven'treally done anything, because they're not really there because you're the one who madethem up in the first place. when you do that, it turns the tables on the ego. if you'reforgiving them because they really did it, then that's making the whole thing real whichis making the ego's idea of separation real.

but, if you're forgiving them because theyreally haven't done anything since the separation never occurred, and what we really are isthis perfect spirit that is still at home with god. then, when you think that way, you'renot only releasing them but, because the way that the mind works, you're actually releasingyourself. i realize that i'm trying to give you all of 'a course in miracles' in a halfhour here... sandra: it's beautiful. i'm going to haveto play it over, and over and over. gary: the reason that's true is because whatwe're seeing is a projection that's coming from us, and the things that we don't likein that projection, the things that we don't like about other people are what the coursewould call the 'secret sins' and 'hidden hates'

that we actually have about ourselves, thatwe have chosen to be outside of ourselves. so, you know, if you look around the roomthat you're in... you see all these separate objects. try and realize that, as the coursesays, ideas leave not their source. so, it looks like beyond your separation has leftyour mind, but the truth is that it hasn't. the idea is still in your mind, and all you'reseeing is a projection of that idea. you're seeing a projection of that idea of separationthat's still in your mind and the way to undo it isn't by fooling around with the objectsin your room. the way to undo it is to change that idea that is in the mind. that's whythe course says that it's a course in cause and not effect. the cause mind and you changeyour mind, and by changing it to the idea

of oneness and wholeness instead of separation,that your experience begins to change. although it may look like you're forgiving other people,it's really always you that you're forgiving. one of my favorite lines in the course isthat -- it asks you a question. it says, to you to whom god says release my son... canyou be tempted to not listen? when you learn it's your own release for whom he has -- you'reactually releasing yourself and forgiving yourself, but it looks like you're forgivingother people. sandra: right. i'm thinking about the example,like, if there's somebody in my life -- my brother, for example, that maybe i'm havinga relationship problem with. it's easy to make him wrong, i can't stand this about him,blah blah... that's all ego. but, to really

practice forgiveness, this is a dream andi created that dream. my brother is a perfect part of the spirit, or he is spirit. he isgod, right? look in the mirror, i am too. i created this, you know -- i'm assuming there'salways a learning experience. there's forgiveness. but, what it does in that instant, gary, thati'm even just picturing this relationship is that it dissolves the ego from trying tomake him wrong, make me right... like, it does that in an instant. i think that it'sbecause of this that you're talking about forgiveness, that i've really been tryingthis on and practicing it since i've listened to your audiobooks and, you know, it's soeasy. my ego really wants to kick in and make people wrong all the time.

gary: sure. sandra: but, why i've been experiencing somuch peace is because if i look at somebody as divine and then i have to have that mirrorback on me as divine... forgiveness shows up in a second. i think that's where the peaceis coming in, instead of me stewing and being stressed out and it's really been great. iknow there's much more to do, but that's a good on-the-court example. correct? gary: absolutely. i'll give the people kindof the one-minute version of forgiveness. gary: especially as you do work through thecourse, because the course says something pretty provocative. an untrained mind canaccomplish nothing. that's pretty provocative

statements, because it's saying that mostpeople who go into spirituality aren't accomplishing anything because they aren't having theirmind trained, a thought system or discipline that the mind can stick to. until you havethat, the ego mind is kind of like a wild animal. it'll run, and it'll judge. the egocraves judgment, because it makes the whole thing and the ego wants it to be real. partof forgiveness, especially the first step, is like catch yourself. when you catch yourselfthinking about your brother, or you're out on the freeway and someone cuts you off intraffic... sandra: oh, yeah. gary: right there, you've got a choice.

gary: you could respond with the ego, andyou could give the guy the finger and you could, you know, say all sorts of curse wordsand hope he doesn't have a gun. gary: that's the ego's response which, incase you may end up dead. then, there's the holy spirit's response, but in order to thinkwith the holy spirit, you have to catch yourself and stop yourself with thinking about theego. this includes your feelings too, because people are more likely to think from theiremotions more than anything, but they don't understand that the emotions they're feelingare from the thoughts that they're having for a very long time. so, the thoughts comefirst and the feelings follow. when you catch yourself feeling uncomfortable or thinkingjudgmental thoughts with the ego, you have

to catch yourself and stop it. that's thefirst step of forgiveness. if you can do that, and you can stop yourself, and notice yourselfstopping to think with the ego, then you can take the second step. the second step is simplythat you switch. you switch to the holy spirit, and the holy spirit has a totally differentthought system, a totally different way of looking at things. you're going to feel better,you're the one who will get the benefits if you do this forgiveness. gary: you're going to feel better, think moreclearly, be healthier, maybe feel younger. i started doing the course 23 years ago. ireally don't feel one day older today than i did 22 years ago.

sandra: that's great. gary: it's like, you're the one who will getthe benefits of doing this, so be good to yourself. think with the holy spirit, andyou'll be more peaceful right away. that's what the course would call the holy instant,that instant when you choose to think with the holy spirit instead of the ego. if youcan do that, then you're doing 'a course in miracles'. if you're not doing forgiveness,then all the theory and ideas in the world won't do you any good. it's only in the practiceand application of the course where you make real spiritual progress. i'm talking aboutsaving light years in your spiritual experience if you do it. the third step is to simplythink with what the course would call spiritual

psyche or vision, and -- i kind of mentionedthis earlier, but you overlook the body and you think of that person as being what theyreally are and where they really are, which is this perfect spirit. the more you thinkabout them that way, the more you'll experience yourself that way. this is a very importantlaw of the mind that the course articulates. it says that as you see him, you will seeyourself. gary: it must be pretty important, becausethe course says never forget this. in this person, you'll either find yourself or loseyourself. so, you have a choice now. you can, you know, clog along with the ego and that'snot a sin or anything. the only result is that you stay here longer and stay stuck inthis, you know, world... of separation longer.

but, i think that part of what the courseis also saying is that everyone is going to wake up eventually. we're all going to thesame place. we're all going home, and we're all going to awaken in god to this awarenessof perfect oneness. nobody is going to be left out, because nobody ever really left.everything that appeared to happen in-between was just a dream, and dreams don't reallyhappen and that's why they're innocent and also why you're innocent. it's good news thatthey're innocent, because you're innocent. that's a really great experience, is to getin touch with your own innocence. sandra: yep. can i just ask you about fear?i know that stems from the ego, too, but is there hope in practicing 'a course in miracles'is that there's a freedom of fear?

gary: absolutely. i can't help but rememberthe first time that i tried to speak in front of a crowd of people. sandra: oh yeah? gary: talk about fear, oh god. sandra: it's brutal. gary: i didn't think i could make my legs... sandra: awe. gary: i didn't think i could do it. i sawall these eyeballs. gary: you know, staring at me... it was terrible.fortunately, for me, i have a good memory

and i remembered the holy spirit and i rememberedthe course and i spoke these words that appear fairly early in the course. it says, i'm hereonly to be truly helpful. you know, i'm here to represent him who sent me. i do not haveto worry about what to say, or what to do because he who sent me will direct me. i amcontent to be where ever he wishes, knowing he goes there with me. i will be healed asi let him teach me to heal. and... i said those words, and it brought about a differentexperience because now i was with the holy spirit. the ego was saying, look at all thesepeople. they're real and they're really looking at you. here's the ego telling you all thiscrap, and then the holy spirit has a totally different story about what is going on.

sandra: it's funny, gary, because before igot on this interview with you, i was so -- i don't know if afraid is the word, but intimidated.i was like, oh my god, there's gary renard i'm going to be talking about. how can i talkto him? who am i to talk to him? i'm just laughing now because that's what i was goingthrough and once we started talking, i was like just trust. the right words will comeout of your mouth. he'll do most of the talking, just trust. trust. but, it's so funny becauseeverything you're just saying is exactly what i went through before i dialed you. gary: yeah, i think that's something universal.we all have that. sandra: sure.

gary: i'm in hollywood trying to get my booksmade into a tv series, and... sandra: awesome. gary: i met famous people, people who arevery, very well-known and it's so easy to fall into that, you know, getting intimidatedby these people. but, if you ever have a chance to reserve these people in private, then yourealize pretty quickly that they're just people. sandra: yeah, exactly. gary: they're not really that head-and-shouldersabove everyone else. they're really just, actually normal people with the same problems. sandra: same fears, same ego.

gary: same worries, all the same concerns...and, you know, we're all just here to, you know, kind of like learn our way back homeand apply our way back home. if people are lucky enough to be on a spiritual path, thenthey are lucky because what that does is that it can give you a better experience of lifewhile you appear to be here, and on top of that you can still have your life. so, youtalk about a win-win situation... you're not really being asked to give up anything, justlook at it differently. on top of that, as you go along, you get to awaken in god. youknow? so, you talk about a win-win-win thing. i really, you know, tell people, look -- ifyou're on a spiritual path, be grateful. i meet others who are not, and there's a lotof unhappiness and depression and, you know,

it's not a pretty picture. so, even if yourspiritual path isn't 'a course in miracles', you're better off. my prime reasoning forrecommending the course, aside from my personal experiences with it is that i really believeit saves time. i really believe that it cuts to the chase, and... you know, as the courseitself says, the miracle which is forgiveness, you know... if it's really practiced by you,it can save thousands of years in your spiritual experience. it says that the miracle can substitutefor learning that may have taken thousands of years. you're saving countless lifetimesin your spiritual experience, so... you know, i tell pepole, oh. by the way, you're goingto save yourself a hell of a lot of time and check out the course. see if it's for you.

sandra: i like it. one of the things -- oneof my beliefs is that life is an education for the soul, that's how i choose to lookat it and to embrace this, you get a whole heck of a lot of education and less stressand joy, and it's like you're fast-forwarding your journey by really embracing the principles.gary, our time has gone by really fast. so, i don't want to forget you to ask if there'sanything you're up to or if there is any way that we can support you, or share you, oryour latest book or you website... i want to know about that. just, anything that youwant to share that we can find you at or whatever. gary: sure. yeah... if anybody would liketo hear me present a workshop, which i often do with cindy. they can just go to my website,garyrenard.com g-a-r-y r-e-n-a-r-d.com. go

to the appearances page, and they can alwaysfind out where i'm speaking because there's all kinds of information there as well aboutmy books. there's the 'disappearance of the universe' trilogy, and also, practically aswe speak here, i'm working on my fourth book. that'll be out within about a year, so youknow, maybe in a year or so i can come back and do another show with you and talk aboutthat book. sandra: absolutely. gary: that's pretty much it, except i am workinghard on developing this tv series. you know... i think that probably this year i'll knowa lot more about whether it'll happen sooner or later. i think it'll happen, but the waythings are going right now it could happen

fairly soon. but, you know, that's not a declarationon my part. i'll announce it if it's actually happening. but, it's exciting and fun to haveinteresting work and the way i see it, you work hard and work is great. if it doesn'twork, then that's a forgiveness opportunity. when i was doing 'disappearance of the universe',the book, over that period of nine or ten years, i didn't have any guarantee that thebook would ever be published. gary: i didn't know if anybody would everread it, but i did it just because i really wanted to and, you know, for all i know itcould've ended up sitting on a bookshelf in maine for the rest of my life. gary: so, you know, do what you feel guidedto do by the holy spirit and remember that

the course always asks you very importantquestions, such as what is it for? if things don't go your way and not the way you wantthem to, which is the ego because the ego wants you to be disappointed. then, that'syou and there must be a body and must be you, otherwise you won't be upset. and, you mustbe real because you wouldn't feel upset otherwise. so, you must remember what it's for. if thingsdon't go your way, remember that it's a forgiveness lesson. if you learn that lesson, then you'rereally doing 'a course in miracles' and you'll get tremendous benefits and all the good thingsthat the course has to offer. so, you know, if anybody wants to go to garyrenard.com andhear us speak and pay attention to what i'm doing, and there are a lot of podcasts youcan go to if you go to the podcast link. i've

recorded 55 of these with my buddy gene bogart.we haven't been doing them lately, because gene has health challenges right now. but,at the same time, you can listen to all 55 of them so that'll keep you busy for awhile. sandra: yeah. gary, thank you. you've heardthe expression if you can just make a difference in one life, and... i know that somethingwill come about with the tv show, i know you've been in lots of documentaries, i know wheni type your name onto the google search that there's so many interviews you've been on,your podcast -- i mean, so, so much. just as one of the people that got involved inlistening to you, i just want to thank you for just... truthfully, i haven't read manypages in 'a course in miracles' but the words

you shared and what i have listened have givenme so much peace and a new way to look at my life and is really empowering. so, i wantto thank you. gary: well, thank you sandra. congratulationson your book, and i know your audio book is coming out soon and your podcast and everything.keep up the good work. sandra: thanks. and for our listeners, thanksfor taking the time to be on this journey with us and listening to gary renard and ourself,where ever you are right now. gary's episode is 82 on wedontdieradio.com, so i will havethere -- or, i do have there all the links to his books, and his website and what heis up to. that's an easy place to find it all. in closing, my name is sandra champlainand i've been your host on we don't die radio.

i believe that life is an education for thesoul and our lives here on earth are important. so, again, thanks for listening and we'llsee you again soon.